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I've shot every gun that Evan
gets on from Benelli combat

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shotguns to I custom 19 elevens.

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I've shot rock and propel grenades.

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I've snuck on a demolition ranges
with seals to blow up cars.

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You snuck on a demolition range?

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That seems particularly dangerous

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Well, it's fun if you're
with the right people,

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Greg Hurwitz bestselling author of 26
Thrillers, including the Orphan X Series,

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is one of four featured authors at the
Columbus Metropolitan Library's Columbus

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Book Festival, which will be held at the
main library on July 12 through 13th.

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Welcome to K Craft, Greg Hurwitz.

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Thanks for having me on.

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Well, I'm certainly
happy that you're here.

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what can audience members expect when
you appear at the Columbus Book Festival?

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I will be talking about
my Orphan X Series.

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That's my thriller
series, about a assassin.

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Evan Smoke, my main character was
taken out of a foster home at the age

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of 12 and trained to be an assassin.

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his handler and father figure told
him when he was 12 years old that the

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hard part wasn't making him a killer.

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The hard part was keeping him human.

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each book is a step in that process
of him becoming and trying to figure

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out after this years of intense
training and being one of the most

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esteemed assassins of his generation,
who's now off the radar completely.

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It's the process of him becoming more
and more human and learning to speak

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the one thing he was never taught, which
is the strange language of intimacy.

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I'll be talking about him, I'll be
talking about this big new thriller,

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that came out called Nemesis.

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that's the new one in the series,
though it can be read as a standalone.

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I'm excited to see the Ohio crow.

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Mm-hmm.

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So what kind of research do you get to
do when you're writing about assassins?

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it seems like you, would be reading
about sociopaths and things like that,

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but do you go in and try to meet people
in prison who have been assassins?

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I, was fascinated with the idea of
how do you find out more about this?

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there's plenty of.

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stuff about assassins, but I've always
figured that they were sort of based

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on, you know, just best guesses.

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That's a good question.

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the program that Evan was part
of and he was trained to be, is

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through the Department of Defense.

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So I have a lot of friends who were Navy
Seals and Army Rangers, and so I've shot

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every gun that Evan gets on from Benelli
combat shotguns to I custom 19 elevens.

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I've shot rock and propel grenades.

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I've snuck on a demolition ranges
with seals to blow up cars.

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You snuck on a demo demolition range?

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That seems particularly dangerous

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Well, it's fun if you're with
the right people, you know.

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And I also did a lot of
mixed martial arts training.

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not particularly good,
but I did some fighting.

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I always feel like part of my job is
to give the reader a front row seat

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to the action, and so I'm always
willing to go and experience the

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thing myself so that I can write
about it in ways that aren't cliched.

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that was certainly the case with mixed
martial arts, fighting, which I don't

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mean to imply was any good at it.

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It was mostly a process of, introducing
my face to the training mat repeatedly.

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Mm-hmm.

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But getting choked out.

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Induces a certain kind of claustrophobia
and discomfort that I can write about

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firsthand instead of relying on a cliche
like, and then everything went dark.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I'm always trying to
experience the thing itself.

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And I have a lot of other subject
matter experts I have, some of the

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top, Network intrusion experts and
hackers in the world, who I rely on.

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my last book, Lone Wolf, that preceded
Nemesis, had a lot about AI and I talked

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to a lot of guys who were originating
AI leaders in the field, visionaries,

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computer chip designers, and then even
had a little summit at the house where I

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brought in theologians and psychologists
to talk about the ways that we can start

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to contend with this symbolically and
mythologically and psychologically.

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I really like diving deep into
all these different topics.

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and the more dangerous, the better.

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Yeah.

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And you had a salon article last
October, where you talked about how,

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community can keep storytelling alive.

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which I, found really interesting
because a lot of people, Many authors are

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having a hard time with the idea of ai.

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in the article you talk about how, you
have a friend who is working on a system

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that would allow, a Faulkner novel to
be written at the touch of a button.

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that's terrifying, for a lot of
folks, including people doing

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the kind of writing you do.

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Well, on the one hand we think it's
great 'cause we have everything that we

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want at the touch of a button, right?

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write me a Faulkner novel.

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Half the length.

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Let's say my IQ is 110.

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So suit all the vocabulary to that, don't
have violence against children and use

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inside jokes from my, Twitter account.

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So you push a button and
out comes your product.

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And on the one hand it seems amazing, but
on the other hand, it's sort of hellish.

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If we keep imbibing only things that
are designed for us, we're like the

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people in Wally, that great Pixar movie,
floating around, imbibing our own things.

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It puts us distant from each other.

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And distant from a shared narrative.

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my argument for why I think artists
need to be predominant, I do

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use ai, but as a research tool.

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I don't use AI to write, but I use it.

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It's, some of them are wonderful
researchers, but there's a couple

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things that are why I think humans
and human authors are essential.

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the first is that what turns us
on and what excites us more than

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anything is always human excellence.

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I don't wanna watch an AI basketball game.

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I wanna watch Michael Jordan soar.

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even when Deep Blue came out, the
chess AI Mastermind, we didn't

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wanna see, deep blue play deep blue.

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We wanted to see how Casper
off would fare against it.

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We wanna watch humans doing
things that are superb.

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That's the first thing.

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And the second thing is if we
have too much of our own bespoke

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entertainment, that's separate.

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There's nothing shared.

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There's not that experience
that we had waiting online.

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I remember Tim Burton's Batman came out.

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When I was in high school, I
remember waiting online you go in

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and there's this oxytocin release
when the audience is excited.

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There's all this energy, we
already feel this to some extent.

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I have Apple tv, like a lot of people.

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I sit there and there's like a
trillion dollars of entertainment

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on the TV and nothing feels special.

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And it's already starting to foreclose
some of our conversations where you

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might say, what show are you watching?

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Oh, white Lotus.

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Well, what app is it on?

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And I'm in season one, so
don't tell me about season two.

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we're getting all fragmented.

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book tours for me are
incredibly important.

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I spent a lot of time at libraries
'cause I was raised in the library.

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Ohio, by the way, is the best
libraries in the nation, which

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I'm sure you're aware of.

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Yes.

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yeah, I haven't, I haven't done,
Columbus, but I spent a lot of time

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in tour in Ohio and on libraries.

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And part of that is that sense
of community where everybody's

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reading the same book.

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as much as we can have
different interactions at

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least we're connected in that.

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And so these events and this ability
to create community in the way that we

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can in a movie theater or at a library
or at a book signing is distinct.

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And that's a very important part of
what keeps us alive and functioning is a

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shared experience of art or entertainment.

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It's very important.

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It's interesting that you say that
because I see some crossovers to some

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of the other work that you've done.

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you've written op-eds for the Wall
Street Journal, the Guardian, the

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Bulwark, salon and others to push against
polarization in politics and culture.

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So, it seems to me some overlap there.

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How's that work going for you, what's
the reaction been to your op-eds?

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I am sure mixed is the
most obvious answer.

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when I'm doing it right, I'm drawing
complaints from all quarters.

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increasingly we really need each other.

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We're facing very, unsure times on
the international stage right now.

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the more divided we are over minor
political issues, which might seem major.

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but are really minor and they're
driven by three different things.

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They're our differences are driven
by psychopathic algorithms, designed

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for outrage, fear, anxiety, if
you're online and you're feeling

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something, somebody's making money.

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You know, that's one thing to remember.

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They're driven by hostile foreign regimes.

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A lot of the issues that we have, a
lot of polarization around are driven

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by full blown PSYOPs from China,
Russia, and Iran that are administered

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through our news, through, social
media and there's bad faith domestic

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players who are dividing us for money.

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I was very curious about this and I
did a set of polling where basically

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I phrased every question in the
polling, not like partisan jerk.

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So instead of coming in and using
phrases that are cliched or ideologically

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laden, like if I go in and say, I
believe in climate change, maybe

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50, 55% of people will say yes.

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If I say, I don't believe in climate
change, maybe you get 45, 50% of people.

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But instead, I phrased the question
by saying, I believe we have a

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duty to keep our skies and seas
clear and our fields and streams.

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94% of people agree.

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Hmm.

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So if you're actually willing to ask
the questions from a basis of agreement,

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and then we can litigate what those
differences are like, are some people

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more focused on ocean biodiversity?

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Other people might be
concerned about carbon imprint.

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Like there's all these different
ways that you can have discussions.

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I. If you're building upon what's shared.

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But unfortunately, there's too much
monetization, fundraising for politics,

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leadership, clicks for eyeballs.

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That's all about exacerbating
the outrage and the differences.

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And the more that we do that, the
more that it becomes a reality.

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one of the things that I'm trying
to do with my messaging is to

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pierce this veil of, there's a term
called pluralistic ignorance that I

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learned when I was researching my.

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Fifth novel where I went undercover into
mind control cults in a mind control

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cult, everyone's miserable independently,
but they can't talk to each other.

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they're in these little miserable bubbles
because everywhere they look, they

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feel like everyone else is in lockstep.

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a lot of aims are made to not have
them communicate with each other.

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And to silo them into different arenas.

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So

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if you think about it, that's
sort of like all of North Korea is

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starving to death and miserable, but
they look everywhere that they see.

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And so that's called pluralistic
ignorance, where people don't agree on a

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ton of different issues people will say,
I certainly don't want to have wide open

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borders and having people come across the
border who aren't vetted and aren't safe.

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But I also think that there
should be a legal process

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that's fair and safe and humane.

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if you phrase each issue in a
rounded way, you can bring 90 to a

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hundred percent of America with you.

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everybody feels like if they're
gonna say anything about these

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topics, you can just list them.

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Abortion, immigration, DEI, you
get the list people are frozen and

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terrified to speak because they
feel they're risking reputational

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and financial damage to themselves.

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if we can shatter that effect,
it's interesting because some of

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these themes have been formed.

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The Orphan X book, the newest one called
Nemesis, it's not overtly political

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because I don't write overtly ideological
books because then I wouldn't be writing

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fiction, I'd be writing propaganda.

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But it is very much about how
friends from different codes can

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collide with each other and they
have to figure out how to, you know?

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And in this case, it's deadly friends.

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'cause one of 'em is an Orphan
X, who's an assassin, who best

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friend in armor his crossed him.

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By selling weapons to somebody
that were used to harm innocence.

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And these two very dangerous men
are going up against each other

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and they have different codes.

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the book is about how they
will resolve those feelings

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of betrayal and differences.

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And it has to come from when you care
about somebody sufficiently that you have

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to reexamine your own presuppositions
in your own values when you know that

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somebody might have acted in a way or
voted differently or said something

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that you just cannot square with your
worldview, but you can't dismiss them or

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excommunicate them, or unfriend them, and
there's a lot of rising mounting stakes

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around them that are equally deadly
as they're trying to negotiate this.

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it seems like as you're
writing you must be.

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struggling with some of your own,
views as you imbue the two different

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characters, with different traits.

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How did you get past that to say, I don't
agree with what this guy's doing, but I

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want the reader to understand why it is
and therefore I need to understand and

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be at least in some sense open to it.

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That's a really good question, Doug.

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are you familiar with the
psychologist Carl Rogers?

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Yeah,

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Roger.

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He's the one

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that we make fun of a lot when we
go, well, how did that make you feel?

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Right.

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He's like the stereotypical
soft therapist.

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But one of the things Carl Rogers did
that I think about a lot was he sat

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the patient up face to face with him as
opposed to Freud, who kind of sat in a

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superior position right behind the couch.

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Well, he had to be close to
his cocaine, Yeah, exactly.

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that's exactly right.

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And so when he looked at him, one
of the things Carl Rogers was doing,

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and what he realized was, you have
to hold your patient with, he called

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it unconditional positive regard.

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So that means if something horrible
happened to the patient or if the patient

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did something horrible, you have to
have a regard for them as a therapist

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that you're trying to treat them.

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he found that to do that, that
the truest act of listening is you

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actually set your nervous system
in resonance with another person.

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psychiatrists and psychologists
have talked about this, and I'm

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sure you've had this experience.

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In your own life, like a lot
of your listeners might too.

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If you talk to someone who's
very manic and energetic, you

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come away and you feel that way.

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If you talk to someone who's depressed
or dysthymic, there is a sort of

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emotional osmosis that takes place.

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for me, with my characters, my
primary aim is not determining whether

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they're right or wrong, more than,
that's my primary aim when I'm doing

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interventions to build bridges in
the culture and politics, right?

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My aim is really to understand as
best as I can, to listen as deeply as

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I can and to try to embody what that
character is thinking and feeling.

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I describe it sometimes as it's like
pulling on a mask and trying to see

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the world through their eye holes.

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If I can embody characters with opposing
views and hold them in mind, that act

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for me is much more compelling and
gives greater depth to the characters

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the plot, the drama, and the tension
than if I've decided in advance, well

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this one's good and this one's bad,
I want the reader to be constantly

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tempted into different points of view
where I don't make them too overt.

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Yeah.

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Which makes, a lot of sense in theory.

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I have to imagine that you
have a little bit more regard

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for Orphan X, at some points.

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'cause you're like, I still need
this guy, you know, so I can't,

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it's funny, Doug, there's some chapters
in Nemesis the new one that long time

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Orphan X readers were losing their minds.

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'cause they're like, wait, this is the
first time I've ever read a chapter.

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that I'm rooting against him.

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Mm-hmm.

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so I like to put him in confusing
ways where we're very intimate

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with maybe goings on in another
sphere that Evan isn't aware of.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so he's coming into this and
so, you know, one of the things

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somebody said on my book tour
for Nemesis, it was a great line.

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Somebody said to me, it's
very hard to hate up close.

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in this book in particular, I take
readers very close with some of the

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people who, from an outside perspective.

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These are people who Evan would just
kill without even thinking about them.

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But the more that I'm peeling the
onion with them and the ways that they

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think when Evan shows up as this sort
of force of nature menace that we're

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accustomed to being, ideally the reader
is having some cognitive dissonance

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Mixed emotions around that, where
they're a little bit confused and on

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edge I like to keep my readers on edge.

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Yeah.

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It's kinda like, you know, there's
other characters I can think of

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in the anti-hero mode that you're
talking about it makes a lot of sense.

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Yeah.

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Well, Greg Hurwitz, I.

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Thank you very much for
talking to me today.

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the book sounds fantastic and you'll
be talking about it at the July 12th

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through 13th Columbus Book Festival.

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Congratulations on all the
success and the 26th thrillers,

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and we will see you in Columbus.

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Thank you, Doug.

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I'm looking forward to seeing you.